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Post by SporkBot on Dec 10, 2019 16:33:20 GMT
She's not more active, necessarily, she's of more focus...on her own show (duh). They say in the show that Clark had been Superman for a while by the time Kara arrived on Earth. Jump ahead a decade, and THEN she becomes Supergirl. Yet the show, on more than one occasion, has just said "she's better than he is" with very little to back it up. I remember the musical crossover with Flash where Barry said he couldn't figure out why people like Superman more...all this based on the fact that he'd met Kara ONCE before, but never knew or heard of Clark. It's a small enough bit where it doesn't affect much, but when the writers do stuff like that over and over, some times more erroneous than others, it feels like they're diminishing one character to prop up another (which is why I don't buy much DC these days) instead of doing what GOOD writers do, and just develop that character organically on their own merits. I don't know if it's certain scribes' lack of ability or laziness, but it seems to be...permeating. And while Kara's development hasn't been ALL bad, they've definitely taken more (and longer) leaps since Season 2 began. The last time I remember her being inspiring was when she was powerless and talked an armed looter down.
Taking it for what it is is one thing, but if "it" is poorly written/established...? I just think they're going very easy on a character that's been around for 1/4 of the time of her more experienced cousin. It's not as bad as Kate "Paragon of Courage throughout the multiverse because she became Batwoman for a few months but apparently let her psychotic sister escape repeatedly to murder and injure people over emotions" Kane, but not exactly a shining example of character development. It's like they want these characters to be on equal footing with more popular and well-established ones, without putting in the same work they did.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 10, 2019 17:04:05 GMT
She's not more active, necessarily, she's of more focus...on her own show (duh). They say in the show that Clark had been Superman for a while by the time Kara arrived on Earth. Jump ahead a decade, and THEN she becomes Supergirl. Yet the show, on more than one occasion, has just said "she's better than he is" with very little to back it up. I remember the musical crossover with Flash where Barry said he couldn't figure out why people like Superman more...all this based on the fact that he'd met Kara ONCE before, but never knew or heard of Clark. It's a small enough bit where it doesn't affect much, but when the writers do stuff like that over and over, some times more erroneous than others, it feels like they're diminishing one character to prop up another (which is why I don't buy much DC these days) instead of doing what GOOD writers do, and just develop that character organically on their own merits. I don't know if it's certain scribes' lack of ability or laziness, but it seems to be...permeating. And while Kara's development hasn't been ALL bad, they've definitely taken more (and longer) leaps since Season 2 began. The last time I remember her being inspiring was when she was powerless and talked an armed looter down. Taking it for what it is is one thing, but if "it" is poorly written/established...? I just think they're going very easy on a character that's been around for 1/4 of the time of her more experienced cousin. It's not as bad as Kate "Paragon of Courage throughout the multiverse because she became Batwoman for a few months but apparently let her psychotic sister escape repeatedly to murder and injure people over emotions" Kane, but not exactly a shining example of character development. It's like they want these characters to be on equal footing with more popular and well-established ones, without putting in the same work they did. I agree with most of your second paragraph, but the rest of your point is why I said "at this point in their careers". Kara's now been around what, 3-4 years or so? Saved the entire world at least 3 times? Clark's spent the last 9 months off-world playing family man. Before that, there were any number of other reasons (or "excuses" if you will, but again I think that's being a bit hard on a show for being what it kinda has to be and doing what it has to do) why it was her taking care of these things instead of him. We live in the world of the 24-hour news cycle, who do you think sticks in people's heads over the span of a couple of years? The old world-saver, or the one who's done it more often more recently?
And honestly, while sure, the writers would ideally do more organic development, sometimes they have to do a bit more of the other because at the same time people across the interwebz (including several folks here who shall remain nameless) also bitch about "why wasn't Superman involved and helping save the day?" Which to this day, be it in comics or movies or cartoons or whatever medium that you're consuming your shared universe via, remains IMO the stupidest question that "smart" fans could ever ask.
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 17:17:57 GMT
Also...AGAIN SG violates pretty much ALL comics canon I can think of by making her the 'hope" part of the SSoV, (obviously what they're going for), instead of the guy who abou 10 billion times has been referred to as the embodiment of hope, while SG has pretty much never been looked on in that way, at least in the modern era.
Again, I think you're conflating comics canon with Arrowverse canon. They've gone well out of their way throughout the show's history to tell and show us that SG inspires hope. Moreso in the TV-verse than even Clark does at this point in their careers because she's the one who's out there doing it more actively.
And yes, that's b/c she's the star of the show and she's the character they actually had the ability to use and so it made more sense to do it that way...I get that it's all meta-reasons, not comics adherence reasons. But at some point I think you have to just accept that for what it is, b/c it's not going to change. He'll get his chance when his show actually materializes, but for now she's what they/we have so she's the star. In every sense.
I would say that the CW writers have TOLD us that SG inspires hope...but they've rarely shown why, especially in recent seasons. Most of those have had her randomly beating up people WAY below her level for what amounts to political reasons, or beating up random security guards. And she can be rather unpleasant to people she doesn't like. How exactly does she inspire hope? Before they overturn so much comic book canon, they might want to show us why she inspires hope...and show it a lot more than they have. Remember, it's not JUST that she inspires hope here, it's that SHE, more than ANYONE, including the Flash and her own cousin. That's what they're saying. And...I just don't get that from her series, much less the comics. Part of that is the tendency of SG writers to TELL everyone what characters are all about rather than showing them. Much like this bit. Part of it is that Superman vibe that Tyler has, (and Routh and Welling), and Benoist, though she's a good actress when she's given good material, doesn't have. Gustin's Flash has a bit of it too, that feeling that when THEIR characters are there, everything is going to be okay. I would imagine that if you were a resident of the Arrowverse and knew about SG, you'd feel better that she was there during a crisis, but you wouldn't have the feeling you got when Tyler or those others were there. Well, that's my thinking. It's not a huge complaint with this show, but it's about my only one really from a show that I've enjoyed quite a bit. I can live with those issues, especially if the rest is as good as what's gone before.
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Post by SporkBot on Dec 10, 2019 17:51:37 GMT
I agree with most of your second paragraph, but the rest of your point is why I said "at this point in their careers". Kara's now been around what, 3-4 years or so? Saved the entire world at least 3 times? Clark's spent the last 9 months off-world playing family man. Before that, there were any number of other reasons (or "excuses" if you will, but again I think that's being a bit hard on a show for being what it kinda has to be and doing what it has to do) why it was her taking care of these things instead of him. We live in the world of the 24-hour news cycle, who do you think sticks in people's heads over the span of a couple of years? The old world-saver, or the one who's done it more often more recently? Perhaps, but it seems like whatever criteria goes into choosing these "Paragons" is more than just what's on the recent news. Some kind of "higher authority", if you will, and you'd think they'd take in factors from more than the recent year. If Superman gets demerits for a little downtime after so many years of service, does Kara get the same for that time Red Kryptonite made her go "bad girl", or that flashback episode where she spent time in her childhood (Earth) home? But I doubt they thought that much about it, because like some other writers making a mess of some other characters, their focus seemed to be "let's just tell the audience how great these characters are, and use ambiguous cosmic ephemera to 'confirm' that they're better than their predecessors".
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Post by Amoebas on Dec 10, 2019 17:54:45 GMT
Last night came something I've been waiting for since 1988... Vindication! I have always said that Superman did not kill Zod and company back in Superman #22 - that the trio faked dying to get Kal-El to leave them be (and it also had the effect of making Superman feel super-guilty for quite a long while). So now, 31 years later and despite being a big fan, I proudly say "Suck it John Byrne! A Kryptonian, once exposed to Gold Krypton, becomes immune to Green (or any color) Kryptonite. Mwa-ha-ha! I win!"Man - that felt good to finally say that.
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 18:56:12 GMT
Last night came something I've been waiting for since 1988... Vindication! I have always said that Superman did not kill Zod and company back in Superman #22 - that the trio faked dying to get Kal-El to leave them be (and it also had the effect of making Superman feel super-guilty for quite a long while). So now, 31 years later and despite being a big fan, I proudly say "Suck it John Byrne! A Kryptonian, once exposed to Gold Krypton, becomes immune to Green (or any color) Kryptonite. Mwa-ha-ha! I win!"Man - that felt good to finally say that. Yeah, I sort of heard that bit, something about Tyler's Superman and Zod, and his Superman and Doomsday, but I don't recall exactly what was said, can someone help?
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Post by Amoebas on Dec 10, 2019 22:15:42 GMT
BTW - I'm in love with Kat McNamara.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 22:17:29 GMT
Also...AGAIN SG violates pretty much ALL comics canon I can think of by making her the 'hope" part of the SSoV, (obviously what they're going for), instead of the guy who abou 10 billion times has been referred to as the embodiment of hope, while SG has pretty much never been looked on in that way, at least in the modern era.
Again, I think you're conflating comics canon with Arrowverse canon. They've gone well out of their way throughout the show's history to tell and show us that SG inspires hope. Moreso in the TV-verse than even Clark does at this point in their careers because she's the one who's out there doing it more actively.
And yes, that's b/c she's the star of the show and she's the character they actually had the ability to use and so it made more sense to do it that way...I get that it's all meta-reasons, not comics adherence reasons. But at some point I think you have to just accept that for what it is, b/c it's not going to change. He'll get his chance when his show actually materializes, but for now she's what they/we have so she's the star. In every sense.
I get why they have taken the approach. The approach just isn't working for me.
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 22:58:09 GMT
Again, I think you're conflating comics canon with Arrowverse canon. They've gone well out of their way throughout the show's history to tell and show us that SG inspires hope. Moreso in the TV-verse than even Clark does at this point in their careers because she's the one who's out there doing it more actively.
And yes, that's b/c she's the star of the show and she's the character they actually had the ability to use and so it made more sense to do it that way...I get that it's all meta-reasons, not comics adherence reasons. But at some point I think you have to just accept that for what it is, b/c it's not going to change. He'll get his chance when his show actually materializes, but for now she's what they/we have so she's the star. In every sense.
I get why they have taken the approach. The approach just isn't working for me. I get why the took the approach...before they greenlighted a series starring Superman. I don't get why they're STILL doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 1:29:27 GMT
Oh snap! Lucifer showed up!
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Post by Amoebas on Dec 11, 2019 2:28:07 GMT
Oh snap! Lucifer showed up! My wife jumped off the couch shouting "OH MY GOD! IT'S LUCIFER!" when he came to the door. I don't think she got the humor in her statement.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 11, 2019 4:48:44 GMT
Big step up from ep 2.
Cryer's Lex is fantastic. Kate & Kara were really good together again. All the Old Barry stuff (that flashback...pretty sure my heart literally melted) was great. Our Barry and BL's scene was great. The Lucifer scene was super-fun. We've pretty clearly got Ollie Spectre coming for a big Battle at the Dawn of Time. The only part that dragged for me was the stuff with Choi, but it had a couple decent moments. Loved it, can't wait for the big finish in January.
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Post by achilles on Dec 11, 2019 14:18:49 GMT
Big step up from ep 2. Cryer's Lex is fantastic. Kate & Kara were really good together again. All the Old Barry stuff (that flashback...pretty sure my heart literally melted) was great. Our Barry and BL's scene was great. The Lucifer scene was super-fun. We've pretty clearly got Ollie Spectre coming for a big Battle at the Dawn of Time. The only part that dragged for me was the stuff with Choi, but it had a couple decent moments. Loved it, can't wait for the big finish in January. I need only say....that was great! Too bad Ashley Scott didn't get to do more, too bad they didn't get Dina Meyer to voice Oracle...er, they didn't, did they, I couldn't really tell, too bad they didn't get the Corrigan from Constantine, but apart from that...eh god, they just did great TV! Damn that clip from the 90s Flash with Amanda Pays and young John Wesley Shipp had me all misty eyed, and THAT almost never happens. Black Lightning was awesome here. {Spoiler} Wonder if Ollie/Spectre remains for the two or so episodes of Arrow left, or if he reverts back to plain old Ollie?
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Post by achilles on Dec 11, 2019 15:56:25 GMT
While obviously they had no problem bringing Scott into this, as her show was on...WB was it then? But I'd love to know how they managed Ellis, who IIRC started on Fox with his show, and then moved to Netflix. However they managed it, it was a great job. Ellis was just outstanding. But damn, guys, why no Shaq or Halle Berry or George Clooney?!? Actually, since there was never any chance of getting Bale or Affleck in this, and since the three TV Supermen shown are much better than Cavill, my wish list for movie characters would have included Keaton's Batman, but I suppose he wouldn't do it. Getting Knox in there at the start was a good consolation prize. Shame they couldn't get a cameo out of Mamoa, or Gadot, or Levy. Too busy I guess. My problem is that I'm really looking forward to the finish, though I can guess how some of it goes, since they've been heavily telegraphing it with the Kara/Kate scenes, but the details...that's what I want to know. This is one of the few times I've seen where a cliffhanger works for me, since they made me care about the characters. That's how you do it.
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Post by achilles on Dec 11, 2019 17:04:48 GMT
So who could have a cameo in the rest of this? Lynda Carter as her Diana would be nice. Maybe they saved the original Corrigan actor to play Lobo? He'd at least be funny. Dean Cain as yet another Superman? Who else?
And I hope Ellis will return to the Arrowverse in the future, after his show concludes on Netflix this coming year. He just owns the scene when he's onscreen as Lucifer, and I'd love to see him with his friend Ryan again. Come on, what DC fan doesn't want to see more Constantine/Lucifer scenes? Or SG and Flash confronted with the actual devil?
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