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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 18:38:58 GMT
I guess I just don't see them giving him an emotional conflict and something internal to overcome as "running him down". Especially since even if it is, you have 4 more episodes of this to build him back up.
Well, there's that, and for what it's worth I think they will build him back, given the prominence of the character in various forms in this. What I saw by that scene as running him down was that it was SG, who after all lost just as much as he did, who had to pick him up. First of all, she's not that character. If anything, given the comic book history, it'd be HER needing the comforting. But beyond that, and much more important, Superman is one of two characters in the DCU that I get the feeling in universe, he's the guy who other heroes and the populace would be comforted by his very presence, (the other being the JSA's Alan Scott). Though of course you'd be pretty glad to have Wonder Woman or Batman around too. Point is though to me, SM is someone who is just the calming presence when everything goes to pot, no matter how he feels inside. Honestly, I think that is the sort of thing that is going to be portrayed by Brandon Routh's Superman.
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Post by achilles on Dec 9, 2019 19:13:42 GMT
Well, there's that, and for what it's worth I think they will build him back, given the prominence of the character in various forms in this. What I saw by that scene as running him down was that it was SG, who after all lost just as much as he did, who had to pick him up. First of all, she's not that character. If anything, given the comic book history, it'd be HER needing the comforting. But beyond that, and much more important, Superman is one of two characters in the DCU that I get the feeling in universe, he's the guy who other heroes and the populace would be comforted by his very presence, (the other being the JSA's Alan Scott). Though of course you'd be pretty glad to have Wonder Woman or Batman around too. Point is though to me, SM is someone who is just the calming presence when everything goes to pot, no matter how he feels inside. Honestly, I think that is the sort of thing that is going to be portrayed by Brandon Routh's Superman. I would agree. I would kind of like to have him come back to the Arrowverse from time to time, as both Ray Palmer and as KC Superman. I'm thinking he might even play the role of Kal-L in this, or maybe that will be Tom Welling's Superman. BTW, have you guys seen that picture with Routh, Welling, and Tyler H, (plus some guy)? Routh and Welling are both about the same height...both big guys, and Tyler was a head shorter and much less muscled... He's got that Superman presence though.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 9, 2019 20:53:58 GMT
I guess I just don't see them giving him an emotional conflict and something internal to overcome as "running him down". Especially since even if it is, you have 4 more episodes of this to build him back up.
Well, there's that, and for what it's worth I think they will build him back, given the prominence of the character in various forms in this. What I saw by that scene as running him down was that it was SG, who after all lost just as much as he did, who had to pick him up. First of all, she's not that character. If anything, given the comic book history, it'd be HER needing the comforting. But beyond that, and much more important, Superman is one of two characters in the DCU that I get the feeling in universe, he's the guy who other heroes and the populace would be comforted by his very presence, (the other being the JSA's Alan Scott). Though of course you'd be pretty glad to have Wonder Woman or Batman around too. Point is though to me, SM is someone who is just the calming presence when everything goes to pot, no matter how he feels inside. Interestingly, Tyler H gave that sort of vibe to me in his few appearances so far. 1. Well, to begin with, this isn't the comics, it's the TV show, so all that comic history has basically squat to do with it. In the TV-verse, from Kal's own mouth, she is the stronger one emotionally. If that's true, then she should absolutely be his rock when he hits his lowest point.
2. Come on, man, were you watching this with the sound off? (I mean, crossover or not, this WAS technically an episode of Supergirl, so who could blame you if you did? But still...) The conversation spelled out for you why he was acting like that. Not only had he just lost Argo where he'd lived for 9-ish months or so and assumedly met and made friends, as opposed to the roughly 1 week Kara spent there in S3 (and not just lost it, he WATCHED it die firsthand as opposed to a visual on a computer monitor), AND just lost his aunt (who died right in front of him as he and Lois were deus ex'd away but she wasn't) and newborn son (who h himself sent away), he also compounded his normal survivor's guilt with the double whammy of having given up being a hero (THE hero, as you yourself try to pin on him) to (in his mind, selfishly) live a normal life and now felt like this was somehow karmic retribution for his doing so. It isn't rational, it isn't accurate, but that's still a very real, very human feeling that someone in his shoes would have that Kara doesn't have to live with because she never gave up that "never-ending battle". So sure, Supes is a calming presence to others. But even he needs help from others sometimes too...that's why he has people in the comics like Lois, or Jimmy, or the League or the Legion, or here, Kara. I thought it was a perfectly well-constructed scene.
3. There is no 3.
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Post by achilles on Dec 9, 2019 21:48:58 GMT
Well, there's that, and for what it's worth I think they will build him back, given the prominence of the character in various forms in this. What I saw by that scene as running him down was that it was SG, who after all lost just as much as he did, who had to pick him up. First of all, she's not that character. If anything, given the comic book history, it'd be HER needing the comforting. But beyond that, and much more important, Superman is one of two characters in the DCU that I get the feeling in universe, he's the guy who other heroes and the populace would be comforted by his very presence, (the other being the JSA's Alan Scott). Though of course you'd be pretty glad to have Wonder Woman or Batman around too. Point is though to me, SM is someone who is just the calming presence when everything goes to pot, no matter how he feels inside. Interestingly, Tyler H gave that sort of vibe to me in his few appearances so far. 1. Well, to begin with, this isn't the comics, it's the TV show, so all that comic history has basically squat to do with it. In the TV-verse, from Kal's own mouth, she is the stronger one emotionally. If that's true, then she should absolutely be his rock when he hits his lowest point.
2. Come on, man, were you watching this with the sound off? (I mean, crossover or not, this WAS technically an episode of Supergirl, so who could blame you if you did? But still...) The conversation spelled out for you why he was acting like that. Not only had he just lost Argo where he'd lived for 9-ish months or so and assumedly met and made friends, as opposed to the roughly 1 week Kara spent there in S3 (and not just lost it, he WATCHED it die firsthand as opposed to a visual on a computer monitor), AND just lost his aunt (who died right in front of him as he and Lois were deus ex'd away but she wasn't) and newborn son (who h himself sent away), he also compounded his normal survivor's guilt with the double whammy of having given up being a hero (THE hero, as you yourself try to pin on him) to (in his mind, selfishly) live a normal life and now felt like this was somehow karmic retribution for his doing so. It isn't rational, it isn't accurate, but that's still a very real, very human feeling that someone in his shoes would have that Kara doesn't have to live with because she never gave up that "never-ending battle". So sure, Supes is a calming presence to others. But even he needs help from others sometimes too...that's why he has people in the comics like Lois, or Jimmy, or the League or the Legion, or here, Kara. I thought it was a perfectly well-constructed scene.
3. There is no 3.
1. Since the comics have informed the opinions of nearly every Arrowverse fan, I'd say it has a lot to do with it, or should, anyway. Yes, they did say that, but my point is that it should NOT be that way. But, again, my opinion, your mileage may and seemingly does vary. 2. No, THIS one I watched with the sound on... Yep, he had plenty of reasons that I would find good to zone out like that. But again, to me, Superman just doesn't do that, at least not at a time like that, and in front of other people. To me, Superman is the rock of the DCU, not Supergirl. But maybe that's just me. 3. Sorry, lost count.
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Post by achilles on Dec 9, 2019 21:53:37 GMT
It does occur to me BTW, that since we saw the Titan's universe destroyed...this destruction thing either isn't as permanent as it seems, (probably a good idea since having a multiverse was a strong point of the Arrowverse), or indeed it will follow the comic that closely and merge the universe's, which would close off those stories, but would I suppose have the advantage of putting all their heroes in one basket so to speak.
It does seem likely they'll do the last.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 9, 2019 22:39:00 GMT
1. Well, to begin with, this isn't the comics, it's the TV show, so all that comic history has basically squat to do with it. In the TV-verse, from Kal's own mouth, she is the stronger one emotionally. If that's true, then she should absolutely be his rock when he hits his lowest point.
2. Come on, man, were you watching this with the sound off? (I mean, crossover or not, this WAS technically an episode of Supergirl, so who could blame you if you did? But still...) The conversation spelled out for you why he was acting like that. Not only had he just lost Argo where he'd lived for 9-ish months or so and assumedly met and made friends, as opposed to the roughly 1 week Kara spent there in S3 (and not just lost it, he WATCHED it die firsthand as opposed to a visual on a computer monitor), AND just lost his aunt (who died right in front of him as he and Lois were deus ex'd away but she wasn't) and newborn son (who h himself sent away), he also compounded his normal survivor's guilt with the double whammy of having given up being a hero (THE hero, as you yourself try to pin on him) to (in his mind, selfishly) live a normal life and now felt like this was somehow karmic retribution for his doing so. It isn't rational, it isn't accurate, but that's still a very real, very human feeling that someone in his shoes would have that Kara doesn't have to live with because she never gave up that "never-ending battle". So sure, Supes is a calming presence to others. But even he needs help from others sometimes too...that's why he has people in the comics like Lois, or Jimmy, or the League or the Legion, or here, Kara. I thought it was a perfectly well-constructed scene.
3. There is no 3.
1. Since the comics have informed the opinions of nearly every Arrowverse fan, I'd say it has a lot to do with it, or should, anyway. Yes, they did say that, but my point is that it should NOT be that way. But, again, my opinion, your mileage may and seemingly does vary. Well, not to argue it too much more, since I agree YMMV, but I would just say that IF "the comics have informed the opinions of nearly every Arrowverse fan" like you say (and I'd argue that isn't even CLOSE to true, as there are some several million people who watch these shows and maybe, MAYBE, 75,000 or so who read Green Arrow or Flash comics over the last decade or 2), then that's their problem, not the shows', because the two are basically apples and oranges. Because last I checked, Ollie has never dated (much less married) Felicity in the comics, Dig was created for the show, Roy is actually likable on the show when he never has been in the comics, there is no Sara Lance, Thea Queen or Alex Danvers in the comics, Heatwave has never been a hero, Mr. Terrific has never been functionally retarded in the comics, etc etc.
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Post by sdsichero on Dec 10, 2019 0:41:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 2:37:05 GMT
Tonight's episode was not as enjoyable as yesterday's...except for the Brandon Routh and Tom Welling Superman stuff.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 10, 2019 7:15:38 GMT
A bit of a step down, but still enjoyable. I thought all the stuff with Lex and the multiple Supermen was fun, as was the future Gotham stuff (other than the single dumbest way that Batman could die possibly ever). Love that they snuck Snart in the crossover, even if just as voice work. The Jonah Hex bit was fun. I was really expecting/hoping for something just a bit more original/imaginative than Ollie returns via Lazarus Pit but it brought Constantine in (always welcome) and is in line with the show's history so it makes sense. It's been so long since I read COIE I had half-forgotten about Harbinger's betrayal, glad to see they incorporated that. Mick & his romance novel...great on any Earth. :lol: :lol: My inner caveman doesn't want to, but I already really like the Kara/Kate relationship (even though the writing on the supportive girl power got just a smidgeon too over-the-top there at the end). Gonna be real interesting tomorrow night to see how that whole kryptonite thing plays out. And my one real nitpick: why in the holy fuck was Iris necessary to go track down KC Supes? Really, writers... really??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 11:51:57 GMT
My favorite part from last night's show.
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 14:02:47 GMT
Tonight's episode was not as enjoyable as yesterday's...except for the Brandon Routh and Tom Welling Superman stuff. They were all great in those scenes. I was prepared for great Routh scenes, recalling his Superman from the movie, but Welling was a great surprise. First off, he got more play than I would have thought. Secondly, he was just so damn great! Like Routh, Welling here had that Superman gravitas, and damn if when he was facing Luthor powerless you didn't think, "Damn, but Luthor's in trouble"! What didn't work so well for me was Conroy. Yes, it was DKR if the Batman from that story was much worse. Still, he had what I assume is his real speaking voice rather than either his Bruce Wayne voice from the animated stuff, or his Batman from those shows. Still, it just didn't track. Also...AGAIN SG violates pretty much ALL comics canon I can think of by making her the 'hope" part of the SSoV, (obviously what they're going for), instead of the guy who abou 10 billion times has been referred to as the embodiment of hope, while SG has pretty much never been looked on in that way, at least in the modern era. But...overall, it was still a pleasant experience, very fun at the points noted above. Not quite as good as the first part, but still good. Overall, I'm pretty happy with it so far. All right, the Anti-Monitor isn't very scary, I don't know what they could have done to make him more...what he should be, but they haven't yet reached that point IMO. Question here, and I'm sure they've addressed it at some point, but why not just use the Book of Destiny to fight the AM? What reason did they give for not doing that?
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 14:08:07 GMT
My favorite part from last night's show. Mine too! "Still stronger"!
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 14:12:44 GMT
A bit of a step down, but still enjoyable. I thought all the stuff with Lex and the multiple Supermen was fun, as was the future Gotham stuff (other than the single dumbest way that Batman could die possibly ever). Love that they snuck Snart in the crossover, even if just as voice work. The Jonah Hex bit was fun. I was really expecting/hoping for something just a bit more original/imaginative than Ollie returns via Lazarus Pit but it brought Constantine in (always welcome) and is in line with the show's history so it makes sense. It's been so long since I read COIE I had half-forgotten about Harbinger's betrayal, glad to see they incorporated that. Mick & his romance novel...great on any Earth. :lol: :lol: My inner caveman doesn't want to, but I already really like the Kara/Kate relationship (even though the writing on the supportive girl power got just a smidgeon too over-the-top there at the end). Gonna be real interesting tomorrow night to see how that whole kryptonite thing plays out. And my one real nitpick: why in the holy fuck was Iris necessary to go track down KC Supes? Really, writers... really??All this. I suppose they had to find a way to include her in this episode for some reason... "Who wants to go see Batman"! Great line, but you'd think that pretty much everyone would have wanted that, instead of just SG. I know I would...
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Post by achilles on Dec 10, 2019 14:15:44 GMT
I have to say, apart from minor quibbles, I'm really enjoying this crossover so far. It's made me realize how much I miss the best parts of Smallville, and Welling and Durance, and makes me want another series with Routh as KC Supes. And to see Welling and Durance again as their characters in future CW stuff.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 10, 2019 15:13:48 GMT
Tonight's episode was not as enjoyable as yesterday's...except for the Brandon Routh and Tom Welling Superman stuff. Also...AGAIN SG violates pretty much ALL comics canon I can think of by making her the 'hope" part of the SSoV, (obviously what they're going for), instead of the guy who abou 10 billion times has been referred to as the embodiment of hope, while SG has pretty much never been looked on in that way, at least in the modern era.
Again, I think you're conflating comics canon with Arrowverse canon. They've gone well out of their way throughout the show's history to tell and show us that SG inspires hope. Moreso in the TV-verse than even Clark does at this point in their careers because she's the one who's out there doing it more actively.
And yes, that's b/c she's the star of the show and she's the character they actually had the ability to use and so it made more sense to do it that way...I get that it's all meta-reasons, not comics adherence reasons. But at some point I think you have to just accept that for what it is, b/c it's not going to change. He'll get his chance when his show actually materializes, but for now she's what they/we have so she's the star. In every sense.
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