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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 15:57:50 GMT
So, the Doomsday Clock series has reached its end. Dr. Manhattan and Superman had their confrontation...sort of. It really was an interesting series, and I am curious what others thought about it. I don't think they completely stuck the landing, but I do like a lot of what they explored and I thought the resolution of the whole thing was interesting (though I imagine there will be those who do not like the turn that was taken with Dr. Manhattan's character.)
Anyone else actually reading the series? Doesn't seem to have been as high profile as a lot of the other events the big two have been pumping out.
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Post by chap22 on Dec 19, 2019 16:33:50 GMT
So, the Doomsday Clock series has reached its end. Dr. Manhattan and Superman had their confrontation...sort of. It really was an interesting series, and I am curious what others thought about it. I don't think they completely stuck the landing, but I do like a lot of what they explored and I thought the resolution of the whole thing was interesting (though I imagine there will be those who do not like the turn that was taken with Dr. Manhattan's character.) Anyone else actually reading the series? Doesn't seem to have been as high profile as a lot of the other events the big two have been pumping out. I think a lot of that is because of the dual issue of it being hard to pin down chronologically in continuity and the fact that was made even harder by the scheduling delays (2 years to get out 12 issues!). As for this last issue, I think I really liked it for the most part (which I could also say about the series as a whole); the central idea is good, the results are mostly exactly what I wanted, but there are a few little bugs that bother me: - Johns's dialogue, particularly for Manhattan and even moreso for NuRorschach, is largely garbage. There are a few lines that hit, but the majority is so overwritten and I think purposely confusing that it weighs down a couple large sections of the book really badly.
- I really don't like what Johns did with Martin Stein in this story. I suspect it's not gonna get nearly as much online notice or vitriol, but on the scale of awful character assassinations, for me this one falls somewhere squarely between Jean Loring and Gwen Stacy.
- I really like one thing Johns did with Manhattan here, setting out possible future reboots of Superman by "seeing" possible futures with set dates whereby it shows the meta-importance of every generation having a Superman and their own take on the origin story. HOWEVER...knowing that this IS DC and that they're notorious for just having to show us in-story how the sausage is made (and noticing Manhattan made sure to mention "5G", the reported probable reboot/linewide hero replacement coming soon), I fear they've already started planning these reboots and the in-universe explanation stories for how they'll happen.
 
- Which really brings me back to my biggest complaint about this series: by using the Watchmen, and making this ultimately a referendum on the eternal importance of the metatextual idea of Superman, it seems pretty clear Johns wanted this to be, and tried to write it as, his own timeless magnum opus. Unfortunately, even if he had the technical skill to make it so, like Watchmen itself IMMO, the book is SO distinctly tied to its particular time and place that it really has no chance of being that. It's not and never will be timeless because it is SO much a product of its specific time. This book makes no sense without some knowledge of the Nu52 and Rebirth. It can't be read before that stuff, it won't make as much sense after the next "Crisis". It is firmly locked in to that particular spot in that particular continuity thread, but you can see enough of the gears turning in-story to know that it isn't completely written that way, and it lessens it rather than strengthens it. And somehow the fact that it was allegedly set 1 year in the future (from when it actually started) with the rest of the DCU supposedly going to catch up to it, then took 2 years to publish, screwed that up even worse.
But all that said, I did like the idea if not always the execution. {Spoiler}It was great to finally get the JSA back, in its best version with Jay and Alan and Jade and Obsidian and Stargirl and most everybody in-between. It was great to get Ma and Pa Kent back (I have ALWAYS thought it was a mistake to kill them off). I actually really liked the resolution for all the Watchmen characters, with Comedian returned to his fall from that penthouse, NuRorschach saving Veidt's life so he can face justice in jail, and Manhattan realizing the third option that was available and moving on (nice touch with him calling Mime & Marionette's kid Clark too).
And good lord, Gary Frank kills it. There are two double-page spreads in here worth the price of admission by themselves.
I want to go back, maybe at some point over the holiday, and re-read the whole thing, but just on its own, I think I liked the ending enough to give most of what I didn't like about the issue (and the series) a pass.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 17:01:22 GMT
So, the Doomsday Clock series has reached its end. Dr. Manhattan and Superman had their confrontation...sort of. It really was an interesting series, and I am curious what others thought about it. I don't think they completely stuck the landing, but I do like a lot of what they explored and I thought the resolution of the whole thing was interesting (though I imagine there will be those who do not like the turn that was taken with Dr. Manhattan's character.) Anyone else actually reading the series? Doesn't seem to have been as high profile as a lot of the other events the big two have been pumping out. I think a lot of that is because of the dual issue of it being hard to pin down chronologically in continuity and the fact that was made even harder by the scheduling delays (2 years to get out 12 issues!). As for this last issue, I think I really liked it for the most part (which I could also say about the series as a whole); the central idea is good, the results are mostly exactly what I wanted, but there are a few little bugs that bother me: - Johns's dialogue, particularly for Manhattan and even moreso for NuRorschach, is largely garbage. There are a few lines that hit, but the majority is so overwritten and I think purposely confusing that it weighs down a couple large sections of the book really badly.
- I really don't like what Johns did with Martin Stein in this story. I suspect it's not gonna get nearly as much online notice or vitriol, but on the scale of awful character assassinations, for me this one falls somewhere squarely between Jean Loring and Gwen Stacy.
- I really like one thing Johns did with Manhattan here, setting out possible future reboots of Superman by "seeing" possible futures with set dates whereby it shows the meta-importance of every generation having a Superman and their own take on the origin story. HOWEVER...knowing that this IS DC and that they're notorious for just having to show us in-story how the sausage is made (and noticing Manhattan made sure to mention "5G", the reported probable reboot/linewide hero replacement coming soon), I fear they've already started planning these reboots and the in-universe explanation stories for how they'll happen.
- Which really brings me back to my biggest complaint about this series: by using the Watchmen, and making this ultimately a referendum on the eternal importance of the metatextual idea of Superman, it seems pretty clear Johns wanted this to be, and tried to write it as, his own timeless magnum opus. Unfortunately, even if he had the technical skill to make it so, like Watchmen itself IMMO, the book is SO distinctly tied to its particular time and place that it really has no chance of being that. It's not and never will be timeless because it is SO much a product of its specific time. This book makes no sense without some knowledge of the Nu52 and Rebirth. It can't be read before that stuff, it won't make as much sense after the next "Crisis". It is firmly locked in to that particular spot in that particular continuity thread, but you can see enough of the gears turning in-story to know that it isn't completely written that way, and it lessens it rather than strengthens it. And somehow the fact that it was allegedly set 1 year in the future then took 2 years to publish screwed that up even worse.
But all that said, I did like the idea if not always the execution. {Spoiler}It was great to finally get the JSA back, in its best version with Jay and Alan and Jade and Obsidian and Stargirl and most everybody in-between. It was great to get Ma and Pa Kent back (I have ALWAYS thought it was a mistake to kill them off). I actually really liked the resolution for all the Watchmen characters, with Comedian returned to his fall from that penthouse, NuRorschach saving Veidt's life so he can face justice in jail, and Manhattan realizing the third option that was available and moving on (nice touch with him calling Mime & Marionette's kid Clark too).
And good lord, Gary Frank kills it. There are two double-page spreads in here worth the price of admission by themselves.
I want to go back, maybe at some point over the holiday, and re-read the whole thing, but just on its own, I think I liked the ending enough to give most of what I didn't like about the issue (and the series) a pass.
I agree with most of this (especially about Frank's art!) That said, I personally found the dialogue pretty enjoyable...it sang a couple of times, I thought. Provided some interesting insight into this time and this place. I also am going to be re-reading this whole thing over the holidays. I think it is the best thing DC has put out in quite some time. Makes me wish in some ways they'd pulled the trigger on something they were considering doing after the original Crisis on Infinite Earths...change the company name to AC Comics. |
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Post by Amoebas on Dec 19, 2019 17:28:49 GMT
I'll be rereading it all too because I never should have read it last night while also watching the impeachment 'debates'.
The JSA is back! (well they've been back in JLA already, but still...) Hurray!
The Legion is back! (well Bendis's Legion of Super-Heroes Team (BLSHT) is back) meh.
And I'll echo what Gary Frank did - simply amazing stuff.
The Hulk will die defending Superman? Who the hell will they be up against?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 17:43:48 GMT
The Hulk will die defending Superman? Who the hell will they be up against? In re-reading that little bit I think it might mean Doomsday will die defending Superman from Thor and the Hulk. |
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Post by chap22 on Dec 19, 2019 17:54:29 GMT
The Hulk will die defending Superman? Who the hell will they be up against? In re-reading that little bit I think it might mean Doomsday will die defending Superman from Thor and the Hulk. I think you might be wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 18:05:03 GMT
In re-reading that little bit I think it might mean Doomsday will die defending Superman from Thor and the Hulk. I think you might be wrong. And therein lies the beauty of this...neither one of us will ever be able to definitively prove such a thing one way or the other.  |
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Post by chap22 on Dec 19, 2019 18:42:55 GMT
We're also gonna have to disagree about this being the best thing DC has put out in quite some time. In fact, it is not, and you are proven objectively wrong by the simple existence of Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen. My God, that book.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 18:48:00 GMT
We're also gonna have to disagree about this being the best thing DC has put out in quite some time. In fact, it is not, and you are proven objectively wrong by the simple existence of Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen. My God, that book. Once again you show you do not really know what "objectively" means. |
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Post by chap22 on Dec 19, 2019 19:28:18 GMT
We're also gonna have to disagree about this being the best thing DC has put out in quite some time. In fact, it is not, and you are proven objectively wrong by the simple existence of Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen. My God, that book. Once again you show you do not really know what "objectively" means. Oh no, I do. It is objectively better in every way. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't so.   |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 19:31:00 GMT
Once again you show you do not really know what "objectively" means. Oh no, I do. It is objectively better in every way. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't so. Or that it is. |
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Post by chap22 on Dec 19, 2019 19:41:13 GMT
Actually, I've about come to the conclusion that just because you disagree actually DOES mean it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 19:47:20 GMT
Actually, I've about come to the conclusion that just because you disagree actually DOES mean it is. No worries, President Trump. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 21:34:40 GMT
You know, the more I think about the way this story ended, the more pleased I find I am with it. This really did a wonderful job of both returning hope to the DCU and showing off why the DC characters gained such popularity in the first place. I think Johns really ought to be praised for this one.
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Post by glaeken on Dec 19, 2019 22:43:41 GMT
Good or bad, at least it didn't end by setting up another event. I will definitely take that.
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